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Home arrow newsitems arrow EU Gifts to Stingy States Turn to Criticism+Opposed Tide Seeking Balanced Deal in Record Long Summit

EU Gifts to Stingy States Turn to Criticism+Opposed Tide Seeking Balanced Deal in Record Long Summit

Written by ACM
Sunday, 19 July 2020

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*Strasbourg/Angelo Marcopoli/- Enough, is Enough ! After a Lot of Concessions to a Minority of so-called "Frugal", alias "Stingy" States, which Initially seemed to have practicaly HiJacked the overall atention at a Crucial EU Summit on a Recovery Fund to Face the Deadly Virus' Crisis,

an Opposite Tide and Criticism apparently Emerged Later-on, from Various Other Countries, as a Key Part of a Wider Search for a Balanced Deal,

while also Unexpectedly Extending EU Leaders' Political Discussions into a 4rth Day, (if not, perhaps, Week !), which have Already Broken an Historic Record High Longevity...

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+ Meanwhile, anOther, Related, but Sudden "U-Turn" was Also the Fact that, in the Hard Fought Role of ...Press and Medias' main Popular "Star", This Time, Dutch Prime Minister Mark RUTTE (See: http://www.eurofora.net/newsflashes/news/eurevivalsummitneedseuropeanvision.html, etc), was practically Replaced, in real Practice, by ...Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor ORBAN ! (See Infra)...

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"Frugal" States' Chief Rutte, after Consuming some Dishes,

(including Expensive Cherries)...

Indeed, the so-called "Frugal", and Recently Nick-Named Also "Stingy" (sic !) 4 Countries of Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Austria, erratically Followed, sometimes, by a New, Young Finnish Prime Minister of a Shaky 2020 Coalition, After Exerting Heavy Pressure, (mainly by Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, but Also his Austrian Counterpart, Sebastien Kurz, in anOther Way), Already managed to reportedly Receive perhaps Too Many EU Concessions... F.ex., among others, also :  

(1) on Ensuring their own Rebates, (at least 3 of them);

(2) on making them Even Bigger ;  

(3) on Substantialy Diminishing the initially scheduled EU Grants, instead of Loans, (by Priority addressed to Poorer and/or Harder Hit by the Virus, Countries) ;

(4) probably Even on Reducing the Overall Sum for the relevant, EU's planned "Recovery Fund" ;

(5) on Measures to Better Control the Hand-over and Use of EU Funds by recipient Countries ;

(6) while Also, iniially quasi-Monopolizing Long Collective Meetings with the Press for Publicity, (Contrary to this Exceptional EU Summit's Official Rules, which Oppose that) ;

  - Etc+, ...

+ Despite All those Moves, However, several among those 4 or 5 "Frugal" or "Stingy" Countries, (which include 1 "Liberal" and 2 "Socialist" Governments, added to Only 1 Right plus "Green" one), while Expressing their Pleasure for those First Acquisitions, reportedly, Still Insisted to Ask for ...even More such EU Concessions :

- F.ex., they Anew Demanded to Further Reduce Grants (instead of Re-Imbursable Loans) at Even Lower Levels ;

- they (mainly the Netherlands, perhaps partly Austria) Persisted into Asking a kind of Individual "Veto" Power over EU Recovery Funds' release and use, (aparently UnSatisfied yet by a Proposal for a Collective European Mechanism of Monitoring) ;

- (mainly the Netherlands) appeared to Lead Pressure for Delicate and Controversial Financial "Sanctions" to EU Member Countries Accused to bypass "Rule of Law", (notoriously Targetting particularly Hungary and Poland, etc., but possibly Others too, Sooner or Later)...

+ Etc....

=> Such Moves, reportedly Started to Provoke Various Critical or even Negative Reactions from Several Concerned and/or Other EU Countries, apparently Nervous or Even Shocked by a, probably, too "Greedy" Attitude by, at least Some (mainly the Dutch, but not only) among the so-called "Frugal" States, (which Motivated Attempts to rather Call them, from Now on, "Stingy"...).

- This Included, Inter Alia, also Italian Prime Minister Conte's reported outcry about an alleged ..."Blackmail" on Europe, (particularly,; it seems, by Dutch Prime Minister Rutte), Even if he might have, Perhaps, Exagerated when he, Apparently, Pleaded for the Lack of almost Any more Monitoring of those EU Funds, Not Even by an adequate, New EU Mechanism, (Contrary to what some EU sources have Proposed)...

+ On anOther Point, (Apparently the Total Volume, and the Grants' Ratio, inside EU's Recovery Fund, etc), French President Macron, (who had Notoriously Agreed on that with German Chancellor Merkel since May 2020), reportedly Warned that EU should Not Make even "More Concessions" which would be "to the Detriment of the European Ambition !"

And Both Merkel with Macron, reportedly Left this EU Summit's OverNight Discussions, Earlier than Others,

while, However, Continuing to Support EU Council President Michel's Efforts to Extend EU Leaders' Talks, even through Monday etc., Hoping that More adequate Proposals and Reciprocal Compromises May Help Find, at last, an Agreement, over a Balanced, Good Deal, so that "Europe realises even an, apparently, <<Mission Impossible>> (sic !), as Michel characteristicaly stressed...

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+ In that overall Context, Rutte's Initial quasi-Monopoly to a Unique, Long "Questions/Answers", Collective Session with several Journalists, (Despite this Exceptional EU Summit's official Exclusion of such Moves, allegedly Because of the Virus), which Inevitably Gave an outright Publicity to Most "Frugal" or "Stingy" States' desiderata, (See, f.ex., inter alia, also at: ..., etc),

=> Now, it's Mainly (and UnExpectedly) the ...Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, at the Heart also of the "Visegrad" Group of Central-Eastern EU Countries, (After Earlier meeting also with Michel, Macron, and Others), who Started to Give several Sharp Critical Replies !

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- Orban First, Started by "Excusing" himself for the ..."ExtraOrdinary Circumstances" in which the Journalists had to "See" and "Communicate" with him, Nowadays, since this Press Briefing, Exceptionaly, had to take place, Curiously, at a ...Remote Parc, Outside of EU Council's Building, under Pretext of the Virus, (while, on the Contrary, that of Rutte, Obviously took place right in Front of EU Council's Main Entrance for Heads of State/Governent, as it was Regularly Done Before the Virus)...

---------------------------------   

    Giving a Topical OVERVIEW of the Current Situation in this Crucial EU Summit, he stressed, from the outset, that, Today (Sunday Afternoon, 19/7/2020),

- "Basically, we (EU) Still have mainly 4 Confrontational Issues, which are the Obstacle to Reach an Agreement Up to Now".

- "Only (sic !) 4. Which means that the (EU) Council and Charles Michel made a very Good Job, to Limit the Number of Open Questions : When we (EU Summit) had Started, they were Dozens !... But Now, it's Only 4", he praised.

=> So, "I think that We (EU) have Good Chances to make a Deal !", Viktor Orban, with a Surprizing Optimism, Highlighted, Despite his usual and present (See Infra) Critical stance...

 - In fact, "We (EU Summit) Must, We Have to Make a Deal !", he stressed. -"Because Unity is the Only Way to get Out of this Challenge !", he Voluntaristicaly Urged, Later-on, thus, perhaps, Explaining his stance. Indeed, -"Nothing is More Important than Make a Deal on the Economic Crisis !", Viktor Orban underlined. + "As things stand (See Infra), probably, - "It Takes some Time, But, IF Everybody is Ready to Stay, We (EU) Can Make a Deal !", he Concluded, in fine, (See Infra).

----------------------------

- "Now, it's Obvious, that the Reason for which we managed to Reduce the number of Disagreement points",

"is Basically, that We (EU) are All Conscious of How Serious the Situation is : ... It's Dramatic, anyway. Economically. COVID is one thing, but we are speaking about the Consequences in Our (EU) Economies. It's Worse than you think !...", he Warned.

=> - As a Result, "the Mood among us (EU Member States' Leaders), is rather Pessimistic. It's Not a Strong Enough Word on How we See the Future... So, we see that Big Dangers are approaching the European Economy !"

- "First, Because of the Consequences of the 1st Wave of the Pandemic, and, Secondly, because of the 2nd Wave, which We (EU)'ll All Expect, could come"...

=> "So, We (EU Summit) are Aware that We Have to Make a Deal !". And "We (EU Summit) are Negoticating under the Pressure that a Deal is a Must", he stressed, from the outset.

---------------------------------

    Until Now, -"We have Already Invested 2 Days, and this is the 3rd Day", he observed.

>>> -  "And, I think that we Need, in order to Make a Deal on the Still Open Remaining Questions, Several More Days !"..., Orban UnExpectedly Warned.  

    As far as it concerns, -"Us, Hungarians, we are Ready to Stay, Even for more than a Week, if We (EU) have to make a Deal", he Smiled... -"Because Negotiating (might) Take a Week !", he audatiously Revealed...

    => - "So, we doN't Want to Go Home withOut Having a Solution for Europe !", Viktor Orban Vowed.

    - "It's Not just about Hungary, Because Hungary is just a Small Story inside the Big Novel. Just a Small Chapter". + And, "Hungary is Rather in a Good Shape". "It does'N't mean that the Future is Not Dangerous for Us (Hungary). But, at this Moment, We (Hungary) are in a (quite) Better Position, in terms of the Pandemic, and the Economic Consequences, and the Financial Circumstances, as well". (F.ex.: Budapest reportedly tries to Simply Lower a 70% Debt to 60%, while Italy is around 130%, France More than +100%, and "Greece...", as he had Observed Earlier).  

    - "But, ...it's about the European Economy !" F.ex., "Even if Hungary is Not Part of the €uro2one, However, IF the €uro2one Suffers, We (H) Will Suffer" too ...

    => -"Therefore, We (EU Summit) Must, We Have to Make a Deal !", he reiterated. -"Because Unity is the Only Way to get Out of this Challenge - on Economy"...

>>> -"So, Probably, we'll See EachOther (also) during Next Week, Several Times !", he Prognosticated, Smiling to Journalists...

    - Indeed, "Nothing is More Important than Make a Deal on the Economic Crisis !", Viktor Orban underlined. i.e. "Vacations, ... Domestic Political Issues, ... Even Foot-Ball, ..., etc", he Joked. => - "So, there are Plenty of Reasons to Stay (at Brussels), IF Necessary", in Conclusion.

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    >>> - Now, "On the 4 Questions :', Orban re-Started.

------------------------

    - "The 1st one is on the Overall Size of this ("Next Generation") Fund Package, to properly Handle this Economic Crisis" I.e., "How Big it should Be ? It's Still Open", he felt, (But, withOut Insisting on that Point).

---------------------------------

    -  "The 2nd, is What should be the Ratio, Inside this Package, of the Grants and and the Loans", he reminded.

    + And, "there are Some Countries, (Basically the Dutch anyway), which would like to Create a Mechanism ...(?), which would provide an Influence, to the Dutch+, to Control the Spending of the Money, basically of the South". he resumed,

 (Perhaps, Too Hastily, since, in Fact, it Seems that the Dutch Want a "Veto", While President Michel and Others, Including, reportedly, France, etc., Seek to set up an appropriate "European Mechanism", which, IF it is Adequate, might Properly Solve that Issue)...

    => -"So, it's, Basically, a Dispute between the Dutch and the Italians", he felt, so that, - "In What concerns Hungary, We are Firmly Standing on behalf of the Italians, in this Dispute", Orban openly Announced.

    - In Consequence, "the Best Way, in what we Can do, is for the Money to Go to those Who are in Need, and Help them to Spend it as Much and as Soon, As They Can (?), in order to Stabilize Their Economy,"

    "Instead of having Complicated, Bureaucratic, and Long Disputes, about Programs, or what so ever"... "Because, if you Give something on the Right Time, you give Twice !"..., according to an "Hungarian Wisdom"..., he Simply found, (Apparently, Excluding a priori the Possibiliy to Create an Efficient and Rapid enough, European Mechanism of Adequate Monitoring).    

    - "That's about Grants and Loans", he Stoped on that Point, in general.

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    + As "For Hungary, we are Not Treated Properly. But, Anyway, we Can Live, even With That"..., he found.     

    - Indeed,  "Previously,  When the Negotiations had Started, the Difference between Countries Belonging to the Same Category as Hungary, like Portugal and Greece, that Difference (in EU Funds) was Humiliating !... The Same Size of the Country, the Same Population, the Same Income level, on Purchasing Power, (Otherwise, it's Even Smaller in Hungary : 7 to 11)"... That Differencies were 9 Billions, 10 Billions €, etc. So, that Difference was not only Absurd Economically, but Also Humiliating !", he Denounced.

    - - "Now, We (Hungary), are in the 2nd Level, anyway. So, it's Double Standards. We haveN't got What the Others have. - But, OK, in order to have (EU) Unity, and Be Together, We (Hungary) are Ready to Accept it. It's Not Fair, But, at least, it's Not Humiliating. That's our position", he agreed.

    + "Be aware of the Fact that we, Hungarians, take Money from the "Next Generation" Fund, which are basically Loans, with a Sum of Money which is Lower than what we Shall Pay Back in the Forthoming 30 Years. So, in the Long Term, this Business is Negative, for us. But we (H) Can Live with that".

--------------------------

    + "The 3rd Point is Rebate :"

    - "Rebate is a Privilege of the Rich Countries !" So, "We (H) would Like to get withOut that", Orban urged...

    - "That Was Created by the Brittish". But "BREXIT Happened", so "Rebate Should Go also !", "Because it's a Privilege". Inded, it's "Because of the Brittish Rebate, (that) is WAS Logical to keep some Equilibrium provided Also for some Other Countries, as well. But, Now, the Brittish are Not Here, Anymore"...

    => -"So, it's a Privilege Like it was for the Aristocrats, in the 19th Century (sic !)..." On the Contrary, If We (EU) like to be Equal, We Should, simply, Get Rid of it. But, Rich Countries (NDLR: Except Germany+) Insist on that. They doN't Move, Not Even a single Step !", he regretted.

    >>> - "Which is a Problem, any way", and "Could be the Final Problem, (and) the Biggest one !", Orban Warned.

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    + "And the 4rth (Open Question) ... is <<Rule of Law>>, he arrived to "Hot" Issues, (notoriously Concerning Particularly Hungary, Poland, and Other EU Member States, at least According to their Critics)...

    - "What is going on" there, "is a little bit Strange : Because there is 100% Agreement (between All EU Member States) on the Rule of Law. Everybody said, as (French) President Macron Formulated it, that <<Rule of Law is Existential>>. And it's Correct. So, IF Somebody does Not Accept the Rule of Law, Should Leave the EU Immediately !"... "He should Not just be Punished by Money, or Anyhing Else". It should, Simply, be a: -<<Good By, Sir !>>"... "Because this (EU) Community is Based on the Rule of Law", the Experienced Prime Minister of Hungary, (which was the 1st former Central-Eastern European Country to Accede into the CoE, with its ECHR, in Strasbourg), stressed. -So, "We (Hungary) Like This approach, it's OK".

    + "AnOther Issue is How we (EU) can Strenthen the Financial Control on how we Spend the Money. For which We (EU) have Institutions, Procedures, etc., and If the (EU) Commission Wants, We (EU) Can Make it Even Stronger. That's OK".

    >>> - "However, the (Current Draft) Proposal is Not to make a Stronger Financial Control, Or to make it More Clear on the Rule of Law Procedure, But (on the Contrary) they Would like to Create a New Mechanism : So, this is Not the Old "Rule of Law" Mecanism, Related to the (EU) Budget", But "this is Not the Case". Anyway, "that would be a Request for a Modification of the (EU) Treaty", Orban Pointed out.

    - "So, that Idea is to Create a New <<Rule of Law>> Mecanism". But, in order "to Create a New Mechanism, a New Instrument, it Takes a Long Time to be Negotiated. Because it's a Legal Instrument : It Must be Precise, it must have Clarity, and so on", he Warned. -"If We (EU) would like to do so, We (Hungary) are Not Against it, But Let's Discuss it !" However, "it Takes Weeks...". So, "We (H) are Ready to do so, But a (New) Legal Instrument and Mecanism Must be a Proper one". (...)

- "That's where We (EU Summit) Are" Now...

---------------------------------

=>  - But, "Who are the Main Fighters ?" (on that point)..  -"Red Box : The Dutch ! (Rutte)"... -" Blue Box : Hungary !" (i.e. Viktor Orban himself)... - "'It's so Simple"...  he described, Smiling.

    - "I doN't Know What's the Personal Reason for the Dutch Prime Minister (always a Single) to Hate Me" (a Husband, Father of 4 Daughters and a Son), "or Hungary", he Wandered... - "But, he's Attacking so Harshly, making so Clear that, Because Hungary, in His Opinion, does Not Respect the Rule of Law, it Must be Punished, Financially !..."

    -"That's His (Rutte's+) Position, which is Not Acceptable, Because there is No (Official EU or CoE) Decision about What is the <<Rule of Law>> Situation in Hungary", he argued. - In this regard, "We (H) are Ready, and I Just Initiated such a Proposal, in this (EU) Summit, to Ask the Germans (as current EU Presidency) to give a Guarantee that the EU Council will Negotiate and take a Decision on Rule of Law Procedure Against Hungary", he Revealed. So, "Instead of Creating a New Mechanism, complete What We (EU) Already Have, and what Was Initiated", he Proposed. - "So Please, Make a Decision on Hungary, as Soon as you can !", he urged.

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    [Naturally, "Eurofora" has a Duty to remind the Fact that inside the EU Council, such Procedures depend from Unanimous Decisions, so that a Good Ally (f.ex. Poland, here) could, in Theory, Save an Accused Member State. While, on the Contrary, in the above-mentioned New proposed Mechanism, such Decisions would depend just from a Qualified Majority...

    However, this is Not an Excuse for some to, Eventually, Attempt to Bully, "Corner", and Harm one, two, or more Other Countries, in fact, just Because they might have a Minority (or "Avant-Guard", Advanced) Position, f.ex., on Issues such as Natural Family and Natural Births, Protection of Human Embryo from Genetic Manipulations, EU Roots in Christian Religion, lawful European Culture Migrants, Instead of Massive Non-European and Islamist irregular Mass Migration, Risking to result in "Parallel Societies" and Social Conflicts, etc, (Even if this might, perhaps, be Hidden Behind some Exagerated or False Accusations around some Hostile and Aggressive NGOs Funded by Foreign Money and Systematically Attacking Legitimate Governments Democraticaly Elected by the People, and/or some, more or less Excessive or Arbitrary Judges, Appointed during Previous Governments, who sometimes, show Blatant Contempt to Democraticaly Elected New Governments, and Partiality or even Hostility, systematically Undermining or Blocking their Policies, and/or Excessively or even Arbitrarily Harassing, Accusing, Prosecuting and often Condemning, for Exagerated, Caricatural  or False Pretexts, even Respectable and practically Innocent Elected Politicians, Focusing, almost Exclusively, Against those who are Not of their Likes... (Comp. f.ex. Risks of Corruption and/or Arbitrariness among Judges and/or Prosecutors, particularly in certain Countries, recently Denounced by CoE's Anti--Corruption Watchdog "GRECO", etc).]

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 - "So, the Dutch (Guy) would Like to Punish Hungary, But, the Major Problem, is Not the Prime Minister (Rutte). Because, you know, Prime Ministers Can make a Deal...", Orban suggested. - "It's Not Easy with Him", (Rutte), But, Theoretically, it's Not Impossible", Orban found.

- In fact, "the Problem are the Parliaments : Because the Dutch Parliament has a Resolution, and the Hungarian Parliament anOther one, which are Diametrically Opposed to Each Other : So, we have Tension and a Dispute Between the 2 Governments and the 2 Parliaments", (where f.ex. Rightists are Notoriously Active...). "So, we Have to Settle this Issue, Somehow", he suggested.

+ Questioned, Later-on, about "the Position of Parliaments" (Comp. Supra), and "How Much Room for Maneuvre (he) ha(s) for the Rule of Law" Issue, (Ibid), the Hungarian Prime Minister, soberly but Positively Replied that - "I Have Some !"...

- However, "I simply canNot Avoid to have a Direct Relation and Discussion Between the Hungarian and the Dutch Parliament", he added. Because "that Difference canNot be Settled through the Prime Ministers" alone, (Perhaps due also to Various Other Parties inside those Parliaments: Comp. Supra). -"So, the Dutch and Hungarian Parliaments should Find a Way on How to Consult and Manage. That's the Way out", he found.

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+ NGOs, MIGRATION, etc.

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+ Meanwhile, (in a Partly Related Issue), "I made a Proposal, which was Rejected, But I Try to Put it Back Again", in one way or anoher, "and this is About NGOs. Because", according to "my Experience, in Recent Years, NGOs who Play a Political Role, - Obviously, WithOut Denying that Fact, Even Saying that they would Like to have an Influence on the Public Opinion, on Political Issues - That Kind of NGOs got a Lot of Money, from the Budget of the EU, and, then, they Came into Member States and Attacked the Governments", he Criticized. - "So, the EU (Commission) Funded Critical, Political Opposition Against the (EU) Member States' Governments : I think it's Not Good. It's Bad. They Should Not do that", Orban argued.

=> - "So, I made a Proposal that the Control and the Regulation of That Kind of activities, in Financial terms, etc;, should be the Same as it is relevant to the Political Parties at EU Level, here" (i.e. in Brussels). -"We (EU) Need the Same Regulations, in terms of Financing, Political NGOs and European Political Parties. But it was Rejected (in that EUC. Summit), anyway", he noted. "But, I Try to push it through again"...

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    + On AnOther Partly Related Issue, + Questioned If he "still, would Like to have a Western Society in Hungary ?",

- Orban, laughing, Firmly Replied Affirmately, But, However, he also Added, that, Nowadays, "Because of the (Mass) Migration, it's Now More Complicated" than usually :

- "The (Recent Mass, Iregular, Non-European Culture, mainly Pushed by Turkish Smugglers since 2015/2016+) Migration Changed our Conception of the (so-called) "West" :

>>> - "Because We (Hungary, and Other Countries) wouldN't like to have <<Multi-Cultual>>, <<Parallel Societies>>, Based on (Non-European Culture, Mass) Migration. We doN't have that Approach", as he said,

(Obviously Based also on Chancellor Angie Merkel's Notorious -"No to Multi-Culti !", and Focus on Boosting German Natality, as well as Attractivity for Intra-European Mobility of EU Citizens from 27 Other Countries, particularly between 2009, 2010 and the 2013 Election, when she had Succeeded to almost Reach ... Full Autonomy of her ChristianDemocrat Party in the Government, with More than +40%, for the 1st Time in recent History ! See, f.ex., inter alia, Also: ... + ..., in her Electoral Speech of August 2013 at LudwigsHafen, Near her Mentor's, Helmut Kohl's Family Home, where Viktor Orban also was a Frequent Visitor)...

- "So, Now, the Difference between the Western and the Eastern Parts of the European Continent, is obvious, Because of (That Kind of) Migration Question, and the Consequences of that in the Political Thinking", he, Obviously Too Rapidly and Schematically, Hasarded,

(Perhaps Forgetting the Recent Strong and Growing Reactions of Many German, French, Italian, Spanish, Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, a.o. People, Even Brittish, for whom this was, in Fact,  a Main Reason of the Majority Vote for BREXIT, since Back on 2016)...

- But, "it (Migration) is anOther Issue", which, Now, "is Not Part of the (7/2020 EU Summit) Negotiation Today", Orban diplomatically pointed out.

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>>> A "NEW (EU) MECHANISM" ON "RULE OF LAW" ?

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    - Questioned if it was "EU Commission" which Pushed that Controversial Draft Text on "Rule of Law", (Comp. Supra), Orban Replied that "It's Basically, Introduced by Charles Michel, Based on the (EU) Commission, I Think". >>> But the Man who Represents that Text, Sociologicaly and Politicaly, is the Dutch Prime Minister (Rutte) : He is the Fighter" on that.

    - "Charles Michel Only said that it's a Possible Suggestion for Compromise" (NB), and "the EU Commission said that - "We Support it", But the Dutch Prime Minister (Rutte) represented the Fighting, about it !...

    - I.e., almost "the Same <<Italian - Dutch>> Mess Also, on Grant and Loan Ratio"...

    => - "So, the Dutch Prime Minister (in fact) is the Leadar of All these Disputes!", "Yesterday (Saturday)", Orban Denounced.

---------------------------------------------

 - "We (Hungary) said that we think that the EU does Not Need such a New Mechanism. What We (EU) Have, it's OK". But, "If  You like a New one, Do it Seriously : A New Mechanism canNot be done in (Only) 5 Sentences ! Comme on...

" It needs "a Legal Masterpiece, a New Wisdom", "It's Not Done Like That"...

- "Because Rule of Law, as (French) President Macron said, is "Existential". So that, IF somebody is Not Ready to Accept Rule of Law, he Should be Kicked Out of the (European) Community ! Not just say that "you should Pay some Money"... No, it's Not the case". But he should "Leave the (EU) Community". Because "it's Essential".

- "Rule of Law" was the Basis to Fight Against the Communist ("Socialist") Regime", from "Where I Come", Viktor Orban Reminded. -"in the Name of Freedom ! Because the Communist ("Socialist") Regime was Not Based on the Rule of Law".

+ "And, Besides that, If you like to Invest in European Society, then you Fight for the Rule of Law. So, I am a Fighter of the Rule of Law. Because >>> Fighting for Freedom, and Fight for Rule of Law, is the Same thing, in the Central European Mind"...

- So that, "If Anyone is Not Ready to Accept it", then, "Please, Leave the (EU) Community ! Because it's a Community of Values, as well", he reiterated.

-----------------------------

+ On anOther Question about the "Rule of Law", Orban said that -"this is Not for me to Reply, Because I am Not Asking Anything" more or new there.

-"Until Now, it was for the European Union's Court to Take All the Decisions :  That was Very Simple ! Because a Legal Procedure Must be Concluded by a Legal Decision".

- "But Now", on the Contrary, "They (Rutte's Followers) would Like to have a Legal Procedure, Concluded by a ...Political Decision, made By Politicians, as we are  !" he Denounced...

 - "It's Not My Idea", and "I would"Nt like to Defend or Attack that Idea, But it's Strange..." Because, in Fact, "it's Not Legal, it's Political !"

 - In Fact, they argue that "What Counts is Not the Text, But ...the Context" (sic !). However, "that was the Communist ("Socialist") Argument !", Orban Denounced (See Infra).

- "The Legal Text does Not Count", (they Claim, in Fact)s, "But the Context" does, for them... However, "We (EU) CanNot take That as Basis for a New (EU) Instrument !", Viktor Orban Clearly Stressed.

------------------------------

++ Questioned anew about the so-called "Rule of Law" alleged Issue, Orban made it Clear that, in fact, "it's Not about a Modification of the Already Existing Mechanism", f.ex. "making an Addition, or something like that", etc. "No ! It's a New Mechanism. It clearly says that it's Separated from any other Rule of Law Mechanism. It's a New one".

 - "I think that it's a Question IF it has Any Legal Basis in the (EU) Treaty at all... So, the Conclusion of that Discussion Could be that We (EU) Have to Create, First, a Treaty Basis", he Warned.

- "But, anyway, it's a New Mechanism, and Legal Mechanisms Must be with a Legal' Crafting. "It Must be very Well Defined, in terms of Categories that we Use, and the Procedure, as well", Orban stressed.

>>> - F.ex., "You know, I'm Coming from an Ex-Communist ("Socialist") Country : How Was that, Under the Communist ("Socialist") Regime, 30 Years Ago ? - When, the Communist ("Socialist") Regime decided to Attack Us, Even Me, Personaly, they Used UnClarified (ImPrecise, Vague) Legal Terms : Exactly the Same which are Written in the Proposal of the (Nowadays "Liberal" Party's) Dutch Man !... He Uses Communist ("Socialist") Terms", but "He's Not Aware of that !", Orban Denounced. -"But, he (Rutte) is Using Exactly the Same ones : " F.ex., "he says <<General Deficiencies>>. So, When I was Arrested by the ("Communist") Police, and I Asked them : - <<What have I Done, which is Illegal ?>>, They Said : - "<<General Deficiencies>>... What the Hell does it Mean ?", he Wonderd...

+ -"And, then, the Other Term that the Dutch Prime Minister uses in the (his) Paper is : - <<It's Not Necessary to Commit a Crime, or to Transgress the Law, If the Risk is there"... So that "the Procedure Could be the Same :" But, "That's the Communist ("Socialist") File" (Against Dissidents)  :  - << Oh, I have Done Nothing !>> - <<But the Risk is in Your Behavior !">> Yeah..

>>>  - "So, these Guys, who INHERITED Freedom, Rule of Law, and Political Democracy, They Do'Nt have any Experience on what We have, Personaly, FOUGHT for that ! So, THEY INHERITED Freedom", while "WE FOUGHT or that... ", Viktor Orban Denounced.

=> - So, "They Used Terms which are Dangerous" (for Freedom), "Because they are Dangerous for us".

+ "But, Despite those Ridiculous Elements, of that Proposal, I Tried to take it Seriously, and Say : - <<OK Guys, If Yoy would Like to Create a New Mechanism, Let's Take it Seriously, and Negotiate in Legal Terms ! Let's Do it !!!... "

=> - "So, We (Hungary) are Ready to do so, Even for Days" (sic !)..., he Vowed.

--------------------

+++  - Questioned Whether he might be "Ready to BLOCK the Whole (EU) Agreement, IF You doN't Find a Deal on the <<Rule of Law>> ?", Orban, naturally, made it Clear, that, in fact :

- "It's NOT ME !" Simply Because "I Initiated Nothing, in That Respect"... "So, we Have to Clarify, that, IF the Deal is Blocked, it's Not because of Me, But Because of the Dutch Guy !" (Rutte), Since - "He Initiated something" there, "While", on the Contrary, "I am Standing on the STATUS QVO, as it Is until Today : In the (EU) Regulation on the <<Rule of Law>>, Financial Control of the (EU) Budget, and All that kind of things. I think it's OK".

- On the Contrary, - "They would Like to Reach Something, which is Not Good enough. So; IF there is a Brake, it's Because of Them !", he Criticized.

>>> - In general, "I doN't like the "Blame-Game", But", here, "the Dutch Man" (Rutte) "is the Real RESPONSIBLE man FOR THE WHOLE MESS that We (EU Summit) have" Today !, he strongly Denounced.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Questioned about "Yesterday's (Saturday Evening's) Meeting" with Rutte, Orban Replied that, in his view, Unfortunately, ... "the Dutch Prime Minister, for Whatever Reason, Hates (sic !) especialy the Hungarians... He's More UnPolite vis a vis Hungarians than anyone else...".

- However, "Here, My Position is Not to Explain the Policies of Other Countries", he Cautiously Declined. "But, there was inFighting..., let's put it in that way".

-------------------------------------

+ However, Questioned "if (he) would like a Bilateral Meeting" with Rutte, Orban Smiled, and Replied that - "It Depends on the Taste" of that..., "But, Any Way, I am Ready !", as he Ensured.

=> And, in Fine, Orban Joked:   - "Sorry, But" Now, "I think that I Have to Go Back to ...My Dutch Friend" (Rutte),

as he Stoically said with a Bitter but Real Smile, Returning to EU Summit's Talks...

---------------------

=> "So, these are the Main 4 Issues", Orban concluded, on Sunday Afternoon. - "This was the Situation" inside the EU Summit, until Now.

=> - "It Takes some TIME, But, IF Everybody is Ready to Stay, We (EU) Can Make a Deal", Viktor Orban Opimistically Concluded, (See Also Supra). +"The Point is Not How Long it is, But to Reach a(n EU) Deal, No Matter How Long might be the Road to arrive there", he Clearly Stressed.

 

 

(../..)

 

("Draft News)

 

----------------------------------

 

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pace_freeze_meps_400_01

They voted to "freeze" UK Government's draft to put People in jail for 42 Days on "anti-terrorist" suspicion without charge, or they abstained. Don't they look suspect ?
-------------------------

CoE's debate on UK controversy stirs PanEuropean check of anti-terror suspects' imprisonment

Former Leftists of the Sixties would boil in hot water if they heard PACE's debate on the controversial 42 days detention without charge, currently drafted by the British Government :

A "Socialist" Government, a Socialist PACE Rapporteur and a Socialist Chair of PACE's Legal Committee, opposed a .. "Conservative" amendment (supported by .. Liberals, Democrats, etc), to freeze the measure, in order to protect Citizens' Freedom, by "waiting" until CoE's Venice Committee checks its conformity with Human Rights' principles.

"Left"'s support to Conservative-Lib.Dem's criticism, wasn't enough to obtain a majority, nor to make things as they were back in the good old days, when "Left" and "Right" had a clear meaning, as "liberty" and "restrictions"...

Conservatives and most Democrats were joined by the Left in voting for the "freeze", as well as Liberal Paul Rowen, while Socialist MEP Ivan Popescu, an experienced MEP from Ukraine (PACE Member since 1996-2008) abstained. But most Socialists, added to a few Liberals and EPP's Right, voted against.

Fortunately, someone inside PACE had the wise idea to shorten the Debate for less than 1 Hour, and put it on the Agenda only at the end of an exceptionally busy day, towards the end of the Evening, when most MEPs had already gone to taste wins and foods at various Receptions all around Strasbourg's "European" area : As a result, not even 42 MEPs weren't present..

Socialist Lord Tomlinson accused the leaders of the PanEuropean Assembly, in its highest body : the "Bureau", to "lack wisdom" by deciding to hold a Debate on an issue that neither the Socialist Chair of the Legal Committee, nor its Socialist "reluctant Rapporteur", did "not want to do", ...

tomllinson

Finally, everybody (critics and supporters alike) was happy to agree, in substance, that the controversial measure "may" gravely violate Human Rights, and therefore, PACE asked Legal Experts of Venice Commission to check UK Government''s plans.

But this might take more than .. 42 Days to do, since PACE's Rapporteur asked the Experts to enlarge their study in a PanEuropean comparison of all that is happening on "anti-terrorism" legislation in 47 CoE Member Countries, including Russia, Turkey and Azerbaidjan..

Bad lack : "The existing 28 days’ detention without charge in the UK is, in comparison with other CoE member countries, one of the most extreme : In Turkey, the period is 7,5 days, in France 6 days, in Russia 5 days, and in .. the U.S. and Canada just 2 and 1 days respectively", denounced Democrat MEP Ms WOLDSETH from Norway..

woldsteth

"Numerous respected human rights organisations, including Liberty and Human Rights Watch, have expressed serious concern" "The proposed legislation ...could easily lead to extensive abuses. ...Detention for 42 days means six weeks in which one is taken away from one’s family, friends, home and livelihood only to be let off without being charged. That will destroy lives and isolate communities", she added.

- "3 years ago, the UK Government sought to increase the period of pre-charge detention from 14 days to 90 days. Not long before that, it had been only 7 days. There was a vigorous debate ...and a ...compromise was reached of 28 days. We have to ask whether there are proper safeguards in place to extend the period to 42 days. I suggest that there are fatal flaws", reminded British Conservative Clappison.

- "What sort of society holds someone in detention for 42 days and does not have to tell the person who is in prison why they are there, or explain the suspicions that arose and led to their detention? What sort of society believes that that is the way to treat its citizens? That is an appalling injustice, ...A 42-day detention period will not make the UK safer. Instead, it will be the first step to giving in to terrorists; it is saying that we are prepared to sacrifice our democratic rights and the principles for which we have stood for centuries", criticized British Liberal Michael Hanckock

hancock

"Comments made ...by Norwegian delegates are unfortunate", replied British Socialist MEP Ms.Curtis-Thomas, accusing them to "besmirch the reputation of our police force, which is one of the Best in the World", as she said, believing that "there are significant safeguards ...to ensure that individuals are not subjected to unlawful detention"

curtis

PACE "has serious doubts whether ...the draft legislation are in conformity with the ...case-law of the European Court of Human Rights. A lack of ..safeguards may lead to arbitrariness, resulting in breaches of ... liberty and ...right to a fair trial". PACE "is particularly concerned that: ..the judge ..may not be in a position to examine whether there exist reasonable grounds for suspecting that the arrested person has committed an offence;"; that "... representation by a lawyer may be inappropriately restricted or delayed;" that "information on the grounds for suspicion of a person ...may be unduly withheld.. ;" that this "may give rise to arrests without the intention to charge;", and; in general, that "prolonged detention without proper information on the grounds for arrest may constitute inhuman treatment", says Klaus De Vries' Report, adopted with 29 votes against zero.

vries

Records don't say if it took him 42 Days to draft his Report, but, at least, he knew why...

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2009 EU Elections were won by Parties against Technocracy and Turkey's controversial EU bid, while the 1999-2004 Majority Abstention trend decelerated. What should be done in 2009-2014 ?

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